Off-topic: Copyright and stuff

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Tue, 03/24/2009 - 16:36

Inflate123

Off-topic: Copyright and stuff

Split off from the Gobstopper thread:

Crow-453 wrote:

As long as they don't make any money out of it, it's allowed.

Actually...that's not really true. Keep in mind that Funny or Die is a commercial site, and they do make money on ads from traffic. Legal parody coverage is hazy at best, and many "derivative works" still technically in violation of Code 17. So I don't think that something like this would go further than what you see here -- a great prank with high production values for sure -- without Dahl's notoriously protective estate getting involved.

I'm not a lawyer and I cannot cite precedents, but I've researched US copyright law in conjunction with articles I've written over the years, so that's where I'm coming from. Copyright law needs to be revamped, but in the mean time, "if I give it away for free I can do whatever I like" is not the same as legal permission. In practice, if people give it away for free, they are simply less likely to be hunted down because they are not seen as a fiscal threat. Common sense suggests that this (and fan fics etc) is a brand-boosting tribute (and the financial realities of prosecuting someone who is not profiting from the copyright violation) so that generally wins out. A cease & desist would be as far as it goes, unless someone with a fat bankroll wants to pay to make a point.

None of that has anything to do with inflation, and the Gobstopper trailer is still really impressive. I just wanted to bring it up, and didn't want to derail a thread with boring crap.

Twitter | DeviantArt

Tue, 04/14/2009 - 07:12

Inflate123

Blacklist wrote:

Fine. Sorry, but I'm a personal believer of, "If you don't want your stuff stolen, don't put it on the Internet."

Sorry, this quote is full of too much fail. It's akin to "if you don't want to get hit by my car, don't walk on the sidewalk." Who's in control of what again?

The folks who make videos and PDFs and other more-than-just-text-stories items are entitled to payment if they set a price. You are not entitled to steal it simply because they sell it on a digital delivery platform. That's all there is to it.

Also, this absolutely discourages potential creators who might want to put more than a hobbyist's effort into inflation porn. That's not a vague scare tactic; that's based on discussions with people in our community who have gotten screwed by attitudes like yours and stopped making stuff altogether.

If you feel content like this has value, respect the creators who made it and accept the rules that come with it. There's really nothing more to it than not.

Twitter | DeviantArt

Tue, 04/14/2009 - 08:35

MTaylor

Inflate123 wrote:

Blacklist wrote:

Fine. Sorry, but I'm a personal believer of, "If you don't want your stuff stolen, don't put it on the Internet."

How about... "If you don't want your stuff stolen, don't let it get near Blacklist because he has a problem discerning *right* from *wrong* and he uses infantile rationalizations to defend his even more infantile actions."

TaylorMadeClips.com
FetishFad.net

Tue, 04/14/2009 - 12:31

sharkdude

OHHH! Owned by MissTaylor! It is that person's stuff and have the rights to any publishing to it...There is still lots of controversy over Mood Boobs and 3rd.com stuff circulating youtube

airtankgirl5 wrote:

Actually, I chat with Sharkdude as often as I can. He's a cyber stud

Tue, 04/14/2009 - 23:31

Blacklist

Ahaha. Oh you guys.

Hey Taylor, I actually buy a lot your stuff.
1. It's accessible to English/U.S. users.
2. What you provide is worth the price of purchase.
3. You don't cause as near as much drama as certain others when something gets out on a forum or image board, mainly because:
- People respect your work, and won't pirate it.
- You don't go ragging on about it elsewhere.

So, I'm not the one to be yelled at by you for this.

Quote:

The folks who make videos and PDFs and other more-than-just-text-stories items are entitled to payment if they set a price.

Not if the story or art (or both} is total crap. They hype up something awesome, and then release it for $8-something dollars, having it turn out to be short, bland and probably not even up your alley in terms of what you expected.
It's not good marketing, it's highway robbery.

Quote:

You are not entitled to steal it simply because they sell it on a digital delivery platform. That's all there is to it.

Uh, where did I ever say that I actually did?
All I did was post the link. I never even downloaded the damn thing, although it is relevant to my interests. Give me it on a site that supports USD and I will download it and buy.

Quote:

Also, this absolutely discourages potential creators who might want to put more than a hobbyist's effort into inflation porn. That's not a vague scare tactic; that's based on discussions with people in our community who have gotten screwed by attitudes like yours and stopped making stuff altogether.

Hey, it goes back to what you're making a fuss over.
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
If they can't handle a leak of their material once in a while, maybe they're not cut out to have a business in this market. Leaks of everything happen all the time. Video game releases, film releases, it sucks, but it happens.

Quote:

If you feel content like this has value, respect the creators who made it and accept the rules that come with it.

And I do (contrary to my one little quote you are all making a brewhaha over), just only when they aren't trying to screw either me or the customer over.

Caution: this user is a new guy in training.

Wed, 04/15/2009 - 01:09

MTaylor

Blacklist wrote:

Ahaha. Oh you guys.
Hey Taylor, I actually buy a lot your stuff.
1. It's accessible to English/U.S. users.
2. What you provide is worth the price of purchase.
3. You don't cause as near as much drama as certain others when something gets out on a forum or image board, mainly because:
- People respect your work, and won't pirate it.
- You don't go ragging on about it elsewhere.

So, I'm not the one to be yelled at by you for this.

To be honest I agree with the statement in principle but the fact that YOU posted the link and then defended YOUR actions with that statement makes you deserve being "yelled" at(even though I don't recall YELLING AT YOU).

We started giving away my first expansion/inflation clip only a couple months after it was released and the same goes for Age Of Expansion.
We did that because we knew it was only a matter of time before our clips got shared so we wanted to give a few away on our own terms and let people come to us to get them. Similar reasoning lies behind all the trailers we make.

Quote:

Not if the story or art (or both} is total crap. They hype up something awesome, and then release it for $8-something dollars, having it turn out to be short, bland and probably not even up your alley in terms of what you expected.
It's not good marketing, it's highway robbery.

Its hard for me to argue much with this as I've always thought too many clip stores/web sites are over priced while putting very little effort or care into their productions.

If I didn't have complete faith in the quality of my clips we wouldn't give them away.

TaylorMadeClips.com
FetishFad.net

Wed, 04/15/2009 - 01:55

Inflate123

Blacklist wrote:

Quote:

The folks who make videos and PDFs and other more-than-just-text-stories items are entitled to payment if they set a price.

Not if the story or art (or both} is total crap. They hype up something awesome, and then release it for $8-something dollars, having it turn out to be short, bland and probably not even up your alley in terms of what you expected.
It's not good marketing, it's highway robbery.

But you're actually the one committing it..!

I think you're wrong here. The quality of the work does not factor into the price of the work, only its value TO YOU. There is no guarantee of quality in this, and I think you're wrong to assume it. We're talking about a highly subjective, very personal fetish. You're talking about it like it's a car or a CD player, where they all made the same to work the same and are therefore guaranteed. But homemade videos and stories and PDFs -- even the ones that cost money -- aren't that. You have to accept some variance in the quality by its very nature. And if you can't accept that -- if you need a guarantee -- then you shouldn't be involved at all, let alone defending passing it around. This content isn't for you.

What's more, you've undercut your own nonsense argument. If it's not good content, why are you defending stealing it? "Ugh, this sandwich tastes terrible, I'm taking another one"? What you should be suggesting is not buying it if the quality is up to snuff; caveat emptor is always in effect. Buy it once -- not good? Don't buy it again. You even have the right to tell the creator that you didn't get your money's worth, and you can tell other people not to buy it again. (I've thought that a community review forum for paid content would be good, like a movie review forum.) You can explain to the world why you won't be supporting that financially ever again, and hopefully you'll also tell the artist that their stuff was overpriced in your experience with it. But stealing it out of customer dissatisfaction isn't even vaguely defensible.

Quote:

Quote:

You are not entitled to steal it simply because they sell it on a digital delivery platform. That's all there is to it.

Uh, where did I ever say that I actually did?
All I did was post the link.

And in so doing, you're promoting it -- you're actually ACTIVELY making the problem worse. "If you don't want to stuff stolen, don't post it online?" If you don't want to be lumped in with the pirates, don't further their cause. As I mentioned before, copyright includes the right of distribution. That link is distribution. Posting it breaks copyright. More on the rights conferred via copyright are here.

Quote:

Quote:

Also, this absolutely discourages potential creators who might want to put more than a hobbyist's effort into inflation porn. That's not a vague scare tactic; that's based on discussions with people in our community who have gotten screwed by attitudes like yours and stopped making stuff altogether.

Hey, it goes back to what you're making a fuss over.
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
If they can't handle a leak of their material once in a while, maybe they're not cut out to have a business in this market. Leaks of everything happen all the time. Video game releases, film releases, it sucks, but it happens.

And there are governing bodies like the RIAA, the MPAA, and the ESA who go over the people who break those rules. What does our community have? People not being douchebags, really. The absence of the police does not endorse lawlessness.

You might want to look at these before we go further.

Bottom line, though? I don't think you're going to be able to put together either a logical or moral argument to support your point that it's okay to copy things you haven't paid for.

Twitter | DeviantArt

Wed, 04/15/2009 - 02:42

The_Warlock

sharkdude wrote:

There is still lots of controversy over Mood Boobs [...] circulating youtube

And to prove the point, this is exactly why there will be no Mood Boobs 2. Further, I will never again make a movie for the BE community. I may make more BE movies, but you can be sure I won't share them except with people that I think deserve them.

The community has shown me that it doesn't want to pay what a Hollywood-made short film is worth, so, fine. You won't see anything like that being made any more. It's not worth the cost.

Blacklist, if you only pirate stuff that nobody wants (because it's so half-ass), then why is there so much demand for it? Why pirate it at all? What do you accomplish? Oh, right, you get e-bragging rights. Go you.

If you're not willing to pay the set price, you don't get to have it and not pay for it; you get to not pay for it and not have it. That's how it works.

Wed, 04/15/2009 - 03:19

MTaylor

Inflate123 wrote:

But you're actually the one committing it..!
I think you're wrong here. The quality of the work does not factor into the price of the work, only its value TO YOU. There is no guarantee of quality in this, and I think you're wrong to assume it. We're talking about a highly subjective, very personal fetish. You're talking about it like it's a car or a CD player, where they all made the same to work the same and are therefore guaranteed. But homemade videos and stories and PDFs -- even the ones that cost money -- aren't that. You have to accept some variance in the quality by its very nature. And if you can't accept that -- if you need a guarantee -- then you shouldn't be involved at all, let alone defending passing it around. This content isn't for you.

What's more, you've undercut your own nonsense argument. If it's not good content, why are you defending stealing it? "Ugh, this sandwich tastes terrible, I'm taking another one"? What you should be suggesting is not buying it if the quality is up to snuff; caveat emptor is always in effect. Buy it once -- not good? Don't buy it again. You even have the right to tell the creator that you didn't get your money's worth, and you can tell other people not to buy it again. (I've thought that a community review forum for paid content would be good, like a movie review forum.) You can explain to the world why you won't be supporting that financially ever again, and hopefully you'll also tell the artist that their stuff was overpriced in your experience with it. But stealing it out of customer dissatisfaction isn't even vaguely defensible.

I have gotten emails from angry clip store owners that had started on clips4sale before me crying that I priced my clips too low and that I should "tow the line" and price over a dollar a minute. They didn't like it that a top ten store would sometimes offer POV clips at $4.99 for a 6 or 7 minute clip.
Why?
"They are junkies! They will buy at any price. Where else can they go?" They would say.

The theory with most store owners is "Charge whatever you can get away with."
In some fetishes there are enough other producers involved that clipstores can't get away with over-charging for crap but in others the producers won't try any harder because they have the market to themselves.

Sharing lots of content doesn't help entice new producers to try their hand at the genre either but I get soooooo sick of hearing excuses made for producers who don't give a shit.
If people try to be critical the producers will frequently just ignore it or you'll see excuses like..."Don't discourage them! We are LUCKY they even try!"
Too many producers don't go and find out what the community really wants to see or can't take constructive criticism either if they miss the mark.

I am NOT saying any of this justifies sharing but as heinous as I find filestealing I find producers who milk a community simply because they CAN just as despicable.

I'm not disagreeing with Inflate123 or The_Warlock :D nor am I saying the producers of the clip that got linked here are despicable--Its their first inflation clip I think and I haven't even seen it-- Is there a trailer or a sample offered?

I'm just adding random points I think. 8O

TaylorMadeClips.com
FetishFad.net

Wed, 04/15/2009 - 03:30

#10

sharkdude

Aww Warlock D: I don't pirate anything a) i dont want to mess up my computer and b) it really isnt worth it...I may have not exactly emptied my wallet on taylors stuff....but i just get by on the little teaser vids and dont go around trying to get anything illegal. Like the Wolverine movie leak...it got people fired and pushed the release back...humans are disgusting animals

airtankgirl5 wrote:

Actually, I chat with Sharkdude as often as I can. He's a cyber stud

Wed, 04/15/2009 - 12:09

#11

Blacklist

@ everyone:
You all have seemed to forget that out in the real world, you don't get in trouble from organizations like the MPAA or RIAA for sharing a movie/music/book/whatever with friends.

That's what this essentially is. Sharing with someone.

And me posting a link to someone's upload is not a crime (gonna be arrested for this yeah right). It was me trying to be a nice guy, and me giving my reasoning behind thinking it was alright posting it. Sorry. Jeez.

@ Taylor:
Your business model is the best way to handle this environment. Giving a couple free clips and constant trailers to your works is great, instead of just one or two screenshots and a price tag.

Quote:

I think you're wrong here. The quality of the work does not factor into the price of the work, only its value TO YOU.

The work is fetish related. It pretty much all has a high value from what is hyped by their producers.

Quote:

You even have the right to tell the creator that you didn't get your money's worth, and you can tell other people not to buy it again. (I've thought that a community review forum for paid content would be good, like a movie review forum.)

plzkthx

Quote:

But stealing it out of customer dissatisfaction isn't even vaguely defensible.

See any computer game made recently with SecuROM (Spore's a great example). The customers in revolt over draconic and opressive techniques that are against the end-user for the sake of money. Hey that sounds familiar...

Quote:

Blacklist, if you only pirate stuff that nobody wants (because it's so half-ass), then why is there so much demand for it? Why pirate it at all? What do you accomplish? Oh, right, you get e-bragging rights. Go you.

Wheee. More assumptions. Post a link; get castrated.

But Warlock, you're a prime example of someone who doesn't work well in a business environment. I remember your posts at The Process where you were quick to say that the entire community was at fault for your film being leaked around a little, while it was most likely just one dude.
Great job wrecking a relationship with your paying customers (going back to what I originally said: If you can't stand your stuff being pirated, don't post it on the Internet because chances are it will be eventually).

Caution: this user is a new guy in training.

Wed, 04/15/2009 - 14:40

#12

deleted_20091014

Blacklist wrote:

And me posting a link to someone's upload is not a crime

I think you'll find it is. I'm sure you won't be arrested for it but that doesn't mean it isn't a crime. It's effectively the digital equivalent of handling stolen goods... just because you didn't download it yourself doesn't exempt you from blame.

Blacklist wrote:

You all have seemed to forget that out in the real world, you don't get in trouble from organizations like the MPAA or RIAA for sharing a movie/music/book/whatever with friends.

Well I don't know what the principle behind this is... fair use policy or something like that. It is accepted that copyright laws are there to prevent the mass distribution of creator's works without any form of payment to the creator. And it is common sense that lending a CD to your mate isn't exactly mass distribution. Basically the law allows you to distribute CDs, books etc as you wish, so long as you aren't making copies other than those for your own backup. Digital media has kind of confused this because of the inherently copiable nature of digital work. This is why copyright law has become so confusing in that area, but we can at least agree that there are some obvious examples, such as posting links to pirated videos which would count as mass distribution.

Blacklist wrote:

Great job wrecking a relationship with your paying customers (going back to what I originally said: If you can't stand your stuff being pirated, don't post it on the Internet because chances are it will be eventually).

You really don't get it do you?

The fact that the internet makes piracy easy doesn't mean it is right... That's like saying that if anyone gets shot dead in America it's their own fault for living in a country with such lenient gun laws.

The Warlock, M Taylor, Bambi Blaze and the like are trying to make a living, they make a significant investment in their work. If people are stealing it then they don't make a profit and if they doesn't make a profit then they can't make a living. Seriously, this is economics 101, how can you not get that?

Personally I am a photographer, I run a website with my photos displayed and for sale. I depend on this for a good part of my living, I have bills to pay that can't be paid without that income.

Therefore I go to lengths to prevent photos being stolen. I watermark them and only have lower res photos on my website. It makes theft difficult but not impossible. Watermarks can be removed and while the low-res photos are no good for making posters from they can be used on websites, you could even have a go at making some pretty crappy looking postcards from them.

But these steps are to discourage theft, not justify its illegality. If someone managed to remove the watermark and distributed the photos on the internet, the fact that they had been successful in removing my anti-theft measures would not make that theft OK... what am I expected to do, pat them on the back and say 'well done, fair game, you're entitled to the profits you're now making on the back of my hard work'... er no... they'd be recieving a sternly worded letter from my lawyer.

I mean seriously that is like saying that if you manage to disable the alarm on someone's car, break the steering lock and hotwire the ignition then legally you've earned the car... well done... enjoy it. The owner should have protected it better.

Wed, 04/15/2009 - 18:41

#13

KorgFal

Wow...Ive missed alot while in the hospital. :|

Thu, 04/16/2009 - 00:58

#14

The_Warlock

Blacklist wrote:

@ everyone:
You all have seemed to forget that out in the real world, you don't get in trouble from organizations like the MPAA or RIAA for sharing a movie/music/book/whatever with friends.
That's what this essentially is. Sharing with someone.

Actually, it's more like inviting your friends over to watch a DVD you bought, and giving them all copies to take home. Which you do get in trouble for.

Quote:

And me posting a link to someone's upload is not a crime (gonna be arrested for this yeah right). It was me trying to be a nice guy, and me giving my reasoning behind thinking it was alright posting it. Sorry. Jeez.

You are correct there, posting the link isn't a crime. It does make you kind of a jerk for promoting stealing, though.

Quote:

But Warlock, you're a prime example of someone who doesn't work well in a business environment. I remember your posts at The Process where you were quick to say that the entire community was at fault for your film being leaked around a little, while it was most likely just one dude.

Hah, what was that you were saying about assumptions? You have no information on how many people, places or ways MB was posted publically, I do. You have no idea how much time I'd spent getting pirated copies removed from various places before I posted anything blaming anyone; most of what I posted in the early days was more requesting people not to post it, and that's all. It took a long time, and a lot of people stealing from me, to get to the point where I was blaming anyone. But you go ahead and keep figuring you know better about things you weren't involved in.

Quote:

Great job wrecking a relationship with your paying customers (going back to what I originally said: If you can't stand your stuff being pirated, don't post it on the Internet because chances are it will be eventually).

Ahahahah, that's great, really great. See, the only people that were getting pissed at me were the people that were getting 'their' free stuff taken away. I've never had anyone say 'wow, I was going to buy your movie, but since you aren't letting people post it for free I'm not going to now!' Shit, you're smarter than that.

And to make an interesting point, Mood Boobs was never on the internet. Never. We sold DVDs through the mail. So does that mean it was posted online because it was sold on the internet, or is it more because the community would rather not pay for it? Which would you think?

One last thing, I knew it would be posted online; I was ready for it. However, I never expected such a concerted effort on the part of so many people to KEEP posting it online, in various ways, all just because 'it should be free!' They never actually said WHY they felt it should be free, although I imagine it's because they didn't want to pay for it. And because of that, because it was so many people trying so hard to make sure that I never made my money back on this venture (and I haven't), that I decided to say 'you assholes have just ruined it for everyone.' I don't really think I overreacted.

Thu, 04/16/2009 - 02:03

#15

MTaylor

The_Warlock wrote:

One last thing, I knew it would be posted online; I was ready for it. However, I never expected such a concerted effort on the part of so many people to KEEP posting it online, in various ways, all just because 'it should be free!' They never actually said WHY they felt it should be free, although I imagine it's because they didn't want to pay for it. And because of that, because it was so many people trying so hard to make sure that I never made my money back on this venture (and I haven't), that I decided to say 'you assholes have just ruined it for everyone.' I don't really think I overreacted.

NOTHING is more infuriating then some of the reactions you get after you get content removed. I had a dozen of my BE videos posted to DailyMotion recently and I went CRAZY. After contacting the poster he took them down and was very apologetic.

But its not always like that. Sometimes it becomes a game to screw with the copyright owner and "reup" the content while berating or humiliating them. It gets so frustrating you just want to ask why?
Why?
Why didn't your parents bring you up right? Why didn't you learn basic concepts of *right* and *wrong*?
Why do you think its Ok to steal or beg for things other people pay for?
Why is my content being sold on the internet any different then what is at the mall?
Why are you such an asshole?

TaylorMadeClips.com
FetishFad.net

Thu, 04/16/2009 - 02:22

#16

Wren

Blacklist, this is L.V. Kane's website, and it's his decision whether a link is ok or not. What anyone thinks is fair or legal is irrelevant because a) it's not your content and b) this isn't your forum. It's totally up to L.V. Kane how much risk he wants to take. Period. If you post something and he deletes it, just go post it on the "chans" where all the other douches post stolen copyrighted stuff, or start your own website and post it there.

Please visit my Body Inflation Fetish Fantasy Clip Store:

http://clips4sale.com/studio/52559

Thu, 04/16/2009 - 08:46

#17

Inflate123

Blacklist wrote:

Quote:

But stealing it out of customer dissatisfaction isn't even vaguely defensible.

See any computer game made recently with SecuROM (Spore's a great example). The customers in revolt over draconic and opressive techniques that are against the end-user for the sake of money. Hey that sounds familiar...

No, it sounds irrelevant. There is no copy protection on the software products we're talking about, and there is nothing draconic or oppressive about content creators charging for their work, and no reason for inflatable fetish consumers to revolt against the content publishers. The only thing the Spore situation even vaguely has in common with our discussion is "dissatisfied consumers." Also, they both use computers.

Quote:

If you can't stand your stuff being pirated, don't post it on the Internet because chances are it will be eventually.

I guess this quote means we've come full circle. This isn't a discussion, it's shouting at a wall. QED.

Twitter | DeviantArt

Fri, 04/17/2009 - 08:17

#18

ShinHakubi

I look at this and I think of Andrew Ryan and what he would say. "A Man creates, The Parasite asks 'Where is my share?'"

And all this bandying about of "The Community" being the people who ruined Mood Boobs makes me a bit abashed to be posting here. Could I be pointed towards an authorized Mood Boobs retailer?

Off-topic: Copyright and stuff

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